And Eye Quotes Jesus, "Thy Faith Hath Saved Thee"
Luke 7:44-50
And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
I still sense a stronghold in the extreme Calvinist camp of regeneration before faith that lives in the ether of blogland. As such, I bring this passage to our attention for several reasons:
Jesus affirms that humans do have faith...
Jesus affirms to this woman that her faith saved her...
Jesus is the only one who could forgive this woman of her sins -- she had nothing to do with that...
But, the woman did seek Jesus out and she obviously believed the gospel by the evidence of her actions...
Can anyone explain to me where they see regeneration before faith in this clear passage of conversion as told us by the Lord?
Stay tuned -- the final installment of our Extreme Calvinism series will post soon!
In Him,
Eye
posted by Eye at
Friday, August 04, 2006
15 Comments:
Eye,
You said, "Can anyone explain to me where they see regeneration before faith in this clear passage of conversion as told us by the Lord?"
That's an argument from silence. In this case Scripture does not tell us all that went on in the heart of the woman before she approached Christ, nor does it give us a glimpse behind the veil at the workings of God in her heart. Perhaps God regenerated her and opened her heart. We don't know one way or the other.
Dr Davy
By
Anonymous, at August 07, 2006 11:37 AM
But we do know according to Jesus that her faith saved her -- not a gift of faith from God to her as the extreme Calvinist would say...
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Eye, at August 07, 2006 1:29 PM
Eye,
Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Interesting to note that Lydia's heart was opened by the Lord as she listened to the things spoken by Paul. Is it fair to say that this is Romans 10:17 in action?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Seems that God sovereignly uses His Word as it is preached to open hearts to receive the gospel by faith.
Blessings,
Leo
By
Leo, at August 07, 2006 9:40 PM
Eye,
It says her faith saved her. It doesn't give us all the details of how she came to faith. It doesn't say that she discovered faith all by herself, nor does it say that God opened her heart and gave her faith through the gossip she heard about Jesus. It just doesn't say.
Because it is silent on the matter, it doesn't support or refute either position.
Dr Davy
By
Anonymous, at August 08, 2006 8:14 AM
I agree that the Lord opened Lydia's heart, but Lydia was already a worshipper of God. She obviously believed the gospel (whosoever believeth) that was preached that day and God opened Lydia's heart to ATTEND to the things which were spoken of by Paul.
The question is what were the things she was attending to? I humbly submit that it was all the things that we know Paul teaches. She was baptized, was hospitable, etc. After she believed God gave her the gift of saving faith/belief, the ability to repent continually, etc.
I do not believe that this scripture teaches that Lydia was regenerated BEFORE she believed, especially when we have scripture that says that we must believe and THEN we are born again.
Faith cometh by hearing the word of God. However, MANY people hear the word of God and do not believe the word because it is falling on unfertile ground as the parable in Matthew 13 states. The bible teaches that God is ever dealing with us to till the soil, so to speak. It is up to each individual to heed to the CALL of God.
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Dawn, at August 08, 2006 6:03 PM
dr davy said:
That's an argument from silence. In this case Scripture does not tell us all that went on in the heart of the woman before she approached Christ, nor does it give us a glimpse behind the veil at the workings of God in her heart. Perhaps God regenerated her and opened her heart. We don't know one way or the other.
Eye's reply: Dawn nails the Scripture regarding Lydia IMHO! I've often thought of her situation being similar to that of Apollos in Acts 19. I believe both individuals were OT saved in the sense they believed in God and in Apollos case, he was baptized with the baptism of repentance. He then was baptized in the name of the Lord and then recieved the Holy Ghost... Lydia, maybe the same situation but perhaps not -- I will agree with Dawn though the Bible clearly states she was a worshipper of God already and the Bible simply states she 'attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul' (doctrines of the NT as given by God through Paul)...
That said, I believe the woman in Luke 7 was not 'forgiven' when she first showed up at the Pharisee's home. We see her faith in action as she ministers to Jesus and then Jesus forgives her in vs 48 and confirms to her and us that 'her faith' in seeking the Savior results in her salvation.
Eye really thinks this couldn't be any simpler...
dr davy -- have you read Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress? Think of Christian in terms of this woman in Luke 7... As I recall, it is several chapters into the story before Christian gets saved, but he heard and heeded the call before that moment in time and Bunyan was a staunch Calvinsit! I wonder if he (Bunyan) ever thought about that?
Leo is correct when he says 'faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God'. The woman in Luke 7 had heard the word of God and she was seeking the forgiveness only the Word of God could give. She was one of the many 'whosoevers'...
In Him,
Eye
By
Eye, at August 08, 2006 6:55 PM
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Leo, at August 08, 2006 7:10 PM
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Leo, at August 08, 2006 7:18 PM
Eye,
Sorry about the two deletes but it did not read as I thought. I thought I fixed it but then I got hit by a barrage of kids and messed it up again.
Blessings,
Leo
Dawn,
I wrote my post in support of Eye's statement with my own twist, I suppose.
My understanding is that Lydia was like Cornelius a worshipper of God (not a Jew but a Gentile) but not yet placing faith in the Lord Jesus as her Savior - the things that she attended to were faith and baptism. This, to me, is confirmed by the next verse which speaks of her baptism.
I am not an advocate of regenration prior to faith but there has to be some working of God for Romans 10:17 to work. I do not know the how per se but He is working to convince the hearer of the Gospel Truth so that the faith expressed is truly individuals desire.
Blessings,
Leo
August 08, 2006 8:18 PM
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Leo, at August 08, 2006 7:21 PM
Dr. Davy:
"Eye,
You said, "Can anyone explain to me where they see regeneration before faith in this clear passage of conversion as told us by the Lord?"
That's an argument from silence. In this case Scripture does not tell us all that went on in the heart of the woman before she approached Christ, nor does it give us a glimpse behind the veil at the workings of God in her heart. Perhaps God regenerated her and opened her heart. We don't know one way or the other."
I don't see it as an argument from silence at all. It clearly states that it was HER faith that has saved her. It fits along with what the rest of the bible teaches.
As Mike aptly pointed out, we see God pleading with mankind to repent and to have faith/belief throughout the bible. It is their own faith/belief through God’s prompting that saves them. We see it first with Abel. No mention that God GAVE Abel his belief. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Nowhere does it state that God GAVE Abraham his belief. As I’m sure you’re well aware, Hebrews 11 tells us what faith is and lists some of the people who put THEIR faith in God. AGAIN, there is no mention of God placing this faith within their hearts.
And as Eye pointed out, “without faith it is impossible to please God.”
Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” (emphasis added)
We see that it is OUR faith that we must exercise to come to God and to please Him. Once THAT happens we are regenerated (i.e., given a new nature and the power to become the sons of God). (I Corinthians 5:17, John 1:12)
It doesn’t really make much sense to me that God would plead with mankind to believe and repent, and be longsuffering toward him by giving him chance after chance to repent, if He is the one making all the decisions for us. If He is the one who gives us our faith, why all the pleading and the persuading? And why does GOD say that WE oppose ourselves and that our blood is upon our own heads?
Hebrews 11:13 “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were PERSUADED of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” (emphasis added)
Acts 18:4-6 “And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and PERSUADED the Jews and the Greeks. And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. And when THEY opposed THEMSELVES, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.” (emphasis added)
And look at this passage:
2 Timothy 3:15 “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
What were the scriptures that Timothy had from his childhood? They were the Old Testament. Where in the Old Testament do we see God saying that He chose certain people to BELIEVE? We don’t. What we see is God exhorting people TO believe that He will bring a Savior and TO obey His commands.
Why would God tell us to bring up our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord if it doesn’t matter in the long run, since He is going to choose who will go to heaven and hell?
Why does God tell us to choose whom we will serve, if we really have no choice?
It is obvious that it is OUR faith which must be exercised to please God. He then strengthens that faith to salvation.
I believe that if we are elect (i.e., GIVEN intial faith by which we are saved) for only reasons that God knows then God would have made that PERFECTLY clear in His word. To the contrary, God writes as though we DO have a choice and that it is UP TO US to make the right choice. We ALL have the chance to be saved.
I see nowhere in the scripture that God sovereignly gives faith to only certain people out of all those who hear His word.
P.S. You mentioned free-will somewhere on this site. For the record, I do not believe that we have total free-will for God is in complete control. God allows free-will when it doesn’t conflict with His plan. However, in the case of salvation, we do have total free-will. :-)
By
Dawn, at August 13, 2006 9:53 AM
Where is Mike?
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Dawn, at August 13, 2006 9:53 AM
Dawn,
I'm not sure... I haven't heard from Mike in several days.
Mike -- you know you are welcome here!
In Him,
Eye
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Eye, at August 15, 2006 6:49 AM
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Modern Day Magi, at August 16, 2006 12:54 AM
I'm going to have to back read this series, The doctorines of Grace are clear in scripture but I do not like how they are packaged by 'Calvinism'.
A good and meaty topic to be looking at EYE
MDM
By
Modern Day Magi, at August 16, 2006 12:54 AM
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Anonymous, at February 02, 2007 8:12 PM
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